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Post by Glitch on Mar 30, 2018 9:48:33 GMT -5
So, thenuge has a second account?
I’m pretty disgusted by the charts you are using, which contains anti-gun countries that were the victim of a terrorist mass shooting (Norway, Belgium, France) during that period. That really is something totally different than frequently occurring shootings at schools. Give me a murder rate per occurred shooting and you’ll see where I’m going at. It’s a sick way of deflecting what the problem really is (“See, it’s worse in other countries!”).
I can understand that you’re scared and have a huge distrust in your government, but owning a gun won’t solve that problem.
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Post by v9733xa on Mar 30, 2018 17:12:13 GMT -5
I talked to a few police officers the other day and this topic came up. Basically I asked them how they feel about people they pull over who conceal. They simply said, “as long as they tell us right off the bat we’re cool.” Yeah that didn't work too well for this fuckin guy huh? Fuck those cops. Ugh, sorry, that just pissed me off because, well, whatever, Philando straight up tells this motherfucker he has a license for a gun, just like you said cops want to know "right off the bat" huh? Yeah that works great. Just don't be driving while black and you're good.
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Post by thegreatunknown on Apr 2, 2018 21:20:58 GMT -5
So, thenuge has a second account? I’m pretty disgusted by the charts you are using, which contains anti-gun countries that were the victim of a terrorist mass shooting (Norway, Belgium, France) during that period. That really is something totally different than frequently occurring shootings at schools. Give me a murder rate per occurred shooting and you’ll see where I’m going at. It’s a sick way of deflecting what the problem really is (“See, it’s worse in other countries!”). I can understand that you’re scared and have a huge distrust in your government, but owning a gun won’t solve that problem. The Nuge doesn't, we just agree with each other. And yeah that video of those cops sucks. It's stupid that there will always be the human factor in every situation. Who knows what's going on in any of those peoples lives. Unfortunately, they decided to act the way they did in that situation. And it definitely wasn't correct.
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Post by xropex on Jun 15, 2018 20:41:20 GMT -5
tragedy
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Post by v9733xa on Jun 19, 2018 20:24:12 GMT -5
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Post by tao on Jun 19, 2018 22:26:24 GMT -5
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Post by thenuge on Aug 30, 2018 23:14:04 GMT -5
So, thenuge has a second account? I’m pretty disgusted by the charts you are using, which contains anti-gun countries that were the victim of a terrorist mass shooting (Norway, Belgium, France) during that period. That really is something totally different than frequently occurring shootings at schools. Give me a murder rate per occurred shooting and you’ll see where I’m going at. It’s a sick way of deflecting what the problem really is (“See, it’s worse in other countries!”). I can understand that you’re scared and have a huge distrust in your government, but owning a gun won’t solve that problem. No, I don't have a second account. Maybe there are actually other people who think differently? Not to rehash ALLLL of this but I got really busy over the summer and just kinda disappeared and am just now reading your comment. You are disgusted by the charts I am using? Did you look through the charts that were initially posted by the other guy I've been debating with? Then did you read my responses to them? Basically not a single one was credible or a fair representation. Don't you think that's a little crazy? How poorly represented things can get and are just simply passed off as fact or research without even questioning it? Hell, I made my own charts for people to view here, VOX published those for thousands of people to see. I simply pulled the data from ALL major countries to give an actual picture instead of just picking a few that support my points. I am honestly not sure how to make those charts any more UN-biased given the original criteria. Certainly terrorism should be taken into account but it is amazing that no one ever seems to include the nearly 3,000 US citizens killed on 9/11 by terrorism... very convenient that once you take out those numbers, suddenly you have a "higher chance of being killed by a white male than an Islamic extremist" (as one Vox headline reads). You don't think that might be a little dishonest? I dunno. You probably won't admit to it. But here lies the problem. We all just want charts to explain ridiculously complex issues. "Look at this bar and how it is bigger than this one! This proves my point!" Correlation does not equal causation. Everything has a multivariate explanation ESPECIALLY when humans are involved. So I guess I'll just wrap it up with... I can understand that you're scared of guns (and probably loud noises) and have a huge trust in your local Law Enforcement to back you and your family up immediately in life threatening emergencies, but disarming yourself won't save you.
I'll address the police shooting video too... Ironic that the "Trump is LITERALLY an Authoritarian Nazi" crowd is okay with disarming themselves (let's be real, they didn't own a gun in the first place, so no skin off their back). The 2nd amendment may not be needed at this EXACT time in our history, but I think a lot of really smart people would tell you that it certainly was needed at one point. But I guess times have changed and no government since April 19th, 1775 has turned on its own people or its neighbors. We see fairly regular police shootings with the advent of body cams. Some justified, some unjustified. So what the fuck? Are these really the only people that should be allowed to carry a gun? Anyone see this guy (police officer) in Arizona last year with "You're Fucked" engraved on the ejection port cover of his rifle that straight murdered a man crawling in a hallway in a hotel last year? Fucking mind blowing watching anti-gun people say "we just want common sense, people need more training, law enforcement has the training so they should be able to carry but basically no one else should" and then turn around and watch the police abuse their position of authority and murder someone on camera and say "oh. tragedy". I am genuinely curious how people rationalize any of this. But, I think something clicked for me recently. We really DO think completely differently. I was part of a conversation the other day in which two women said "I would rather be shot than shoot somebody"... when talking about an active shooter incident. That really opened my eyes. I would definitely prefer the opposite to happen. So, I guess that being said, we probably won't ever see eye-to-eye on any of this. How can I prove a point of keeping a gun for self-defense when you don't even believe in the concept of self-defense (not saying YOU - but in this case, the two women I was talking to). You'll keep telling me I'm "clinging to my guns" and I'll keep telling you it is my right. No one is budging. My only hope is that MAYBE you can see that people across the aisle aren't the redneck cousin-fucking retards you imagine. I live in one of the bluest congressional districts in the United States - I am a member of the local granola eating co-op and think veganism has its merits - I don't own a pickup with NRA stickers plastered all over it - I typically use the city bikes to get around - and I just so happen to think guns are fucking awesome while also realizing the seriousness and absolute importance of what the 2nd amendment means to us as a free nation and the amazing struggle and sacrifice of our forefathers in order to lay the groundwork for what we have today. Not everyone that disagrees with you is uneducated or whatever -ist you can think of. I get along with most people and would probably get along with you if we met in person. Don't attack the person, attack the idea and bring something to the table.
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Post by v9733xa on Aug 31, 2018 17:17:34 GMT -5
Yeah you definitely didn't address that particular police shooting video at all.
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Post by Liggy on Aug 31, 2018 21:20:26 GMT -5
Lol wtf did this thread turn into?
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Post by thenuge on Sept 1, 2018 0:22:31 GMT -5
Yeah you definitely didn't address that particular police shooting video at all. The shooting was unjustified and fucked up from the dashcam perspective.
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Post by Glitch on Sept 7, 2018 15:59:41 GMT -5
No, I don't have a second account. Maybe there are actually other people who think differently? Not to rehash ALLLL of this but I got really busy over the summer and just kinda disappeared and am just now reading your comment. You are disgusted by the charts I am using? Did you look through the charts that were initially posted by the other guy I've been debating with? Then did you read my responses to them? Basically not a single one was credible or a fair representation. Don't you think that's a little crazy? How poorly represented things can get and are just simply passed off as fact or research without even questioning it? Hell, I made my own charts for people to view here, VOX published those for thousands of people to see. I simply pulled the data from ALL major countries to give an actual picture instead of just picking a few that support my points. I am honestly not sure how to make those charts any more UN-biased given the original criteria. Certainly terrorism should be taken into account but it is amazing that no one ever seems to include the nearly 3,000 US citizens killed on 9/11 by terrorism... very convenient that once you take out those numbers, suddenly you have a "higher chance of being killed by a white male than an Islamic extremist" (as one Vox headline reads). You don't think that might be a little dishonest? I dunno. You probably won't admit to it. But here lies the problem. We all just want charts to explain ridiculously complex issues. "Look at this bar and how it is bigger than this one! This proves my point!" Correlation does not equal causation. Everything has a multivariate explanation ESPECIALLY when humans are involved. So I guess I'll just wrap it up with... I can understand that you're scared of guns (and probably loud noises) and have a huge trust in your local Law Enforcement to back you and your family up immediately in life threatening emergencies, but disarming yourself won't save you. Babble all you want, man. Give me a murder rate per occurred shooting and you’ll see where I’m going at. And don't try to prove your point by using and analysing charts, then throwing it all in the bin with this: But here lies the problem. We all just want charts to explain ridiculously complex issues. "Look at this bar and how it is bigger than this one! This proves my point!" Correlation does not equal causation. Everything has a multivariate explanation ESPECIALLY when humans are involved.
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Post by thenuge on Sept 8, 2018 11:35:25 GMT -5
And don't try to prove your point by using and analysing charts, then throwing it all in the bin with this:But here lies the problem. We all just want charts to explain ridiculously complex issues. "Look at this bar and how it is bigger than this one! This proves my point!" Correlation does not equal causation. Everything has a multivariate explanation ESPECIALLY when humans are involved. K. Good talk. I guess he was using charts so I used charts too. Just tried to make them a little more representative with a bigger picture to show how misleading charts can be. My bad apparently. Thanks for addressing nothing on the topic.
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Post by thenuge on Sept 8, 2018 11:58:47 GMT -5
I’m pretty disgusted by the charts you are using, which contains anti-gun countries that were the victim of a terrorist mass shooting (Norway, Belgium, France) during that period. I guess I kind of overlooked this point when you made it. But looking at it now I have honestly no idea why you think that would change anything. The original argument is that higher gun ownership equals higher gun deaths. Go to the ONE chart that I used European countries on and lets look at Norway, Belgium and France as you pointed out. If you lower those three countries on the Y-axis just a little bit to subtract gun deaths due to terrorism it would actually DROP the correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths because gun ownership STILL REMAINS THE SAME (unless these studies are taking polls of terrorists and asking them how many weapons they have stockpiled and including those numbers in ownership... which I kind of doubt). Do you understand this? Did you read any of the preceding graphs or anything I wrote about them or are you just throwing out arguments because you don't like guns?
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